Author Topic: Google Quiting Mainland Market  (Read 20255 times)

Offline chin

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Google Quiting Mainland Market
« on: 16 January 2010, 03:07:25 »
Probably one of the hottest news in the last few days.

Is this a business decision? Network security decision? Political decision?

Google has not been doing well in the Chinese market from a user point of view. I have found Baidu much better in returning relevant results than Google when searching with Chinese terms.

I personally think it's a good thing if Google quits the mainland market - it leaves a very large market for other companies to grow big and eventually compete with Google. As a long time Internet user, I do not want Google to remain the only superpower.

(BTW, Baidu has a dedicated section on this subject. The news of Google quiting, and the reasons behind it, are very openly discussed in the mainland medias. Don't believe any claim that the mainland government blocks the news of Google's quiting.)

Offline chanchiwai

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Re: Google Quiting Mainland Market
« Reply #1 on: 16 January 2010, 06:35:42 »
the more you stay in China, the more you feel China is creating their own style, like QQ and taobao (淘宝网), needless to say the selling out of Yahoo China to alibaba.

I believe it's just their excuse to quite China market due to business (financial) interest, i don't beleive in US will have no hackers or any censor search...

In term of conservative, US is more or less the same like China, or even worse...the only thing they outstanding over China is Media, and other countries would like to boardcast their news..that's it...

I hate this kind of hypocrisy.....

 >:( >:( >:(

Offline chin

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Re: Google Quiting Mainland Market
« Reply #2 on: 17 January 2010, 03:53:25 »
Charles you have good points here. I was going to mention the Yahoo & eBay failures in the mainland, and then I read this article in New York Times.

The last part highlighted in blue rings especially true, from my personal experience of selling my first company to a US firm. The guys in HQ always thought they are smarter than the guys on the ground (who started the company in the first place.)

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http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/16/technology/16failure.html

China, Where U.S. Internet Companies Often Fail
By DAVID BARBOZA and BRAD STONE
Published: January 15, 2010

SHANGHAI — If Google pulls out of China because of frustration with government restrictions, it will not be the first time an American Internet giant has retreated from the country.

EBay and Yahoo arrived with high hopes for a market that failed to live up to their expectations. Social sites like Facebook, MySpace and Twitter have never managed to gain a significant foothold in China, partly because of government blocking and censorship and partly because most major Chinese Internet companies offer popular social networking features of their own.

In fact, no major American Internet company has dominated its field in China, which by some measures is the world’s largest Internet market. Many experts thought Google would be the first.

“There’s no U.S. Internet company close to being a leader here,” says Gary Rieschel, founder and managing director of Qiming Venture Partners, a venture capital firm. “And most of the wounds are self-inflicted.”

While each failure has been different, analysts say the cases may help explain why Google is frustrated — not just by government censors but by its inability to catch its big Chinese rival, Baidu.

Google, an Internet Goliath with $22 billion in revenue and some of the smartest people on the planet, is getting clobbered in China, holding 33 percent of the search engine market to Baidu’s 63 percent. Google has gained significant market share since it formally entered China five years ago, but almost all of that has come from smaller rivals. Baidu also gained market share in that time.

No one expected it to be this way. America’s bleeding-edge technology giants came here armed with cash, intellectual property and an ability to manage complex networks and introverted workers. They each bought or invested in local Internet companies and hired Chinese executives, and they worked to show sensitivity to the byzantine social customs of the world’s most populous country.

But all of them were outsmarted in different ways.

Google set up its China business in 2006, after it invested in Baidu and then reportedly tried and failed to buy it outright. Baidu, founded in 2000 when the Chinese Internet was just beginning to bud, carved out a strong presence by offering something that Google, at first, would not: easy links to download pirated songs, TV shows and movies from Chinese Web sites.

Baidu claimed this was legal because the media files were not on its own computers. Google itself finally introduced a free online music service in China in 2009, with the permission of the music labels, but it has never managed to make up the lost ground.

“Searching for music is what people did early on in China,” said Felix Oberholzer-Gee, a professor at Harvard Business School who has studied the Chinese Internet market. “It was huge, and Google didn’t have it.”

Google has said that its threat to leave China has nothing to do with financial considerations.

Perhaps no company tripped up as badly in China as Yahoo. It bought a local Internet company in 2004 to expand its Web presence and compete with Baidu and the local portal Sina.com. After it failed to gain ground, Yahoo abruptly reversed course, paying a billion dollars for a 40 percent share in Alibaba, a local Internet giant, which then took over its Chinese business.

Yahoo reaped a financial windfall when Alibaba stock soared in an initial offering in 2007, much as Google did when it sold its stake in Baidu. But operationally Yahoo had failed in the country — and it was only beginning to pay for that failure. In 2004, the nonprofit group Doctors Without Borders reported that Chinese dissidents had been jailed because Yahoo released the contents of their e-mail accounts to the Chinese government. In subsequent years, Yahoo executives, including Jerry Yang, a co-founder, were hauled before Congress and berated over the incident.

EBay was the only technology giant that got a fast start in the Chinese market. In 2003, eBay bought EachNet, the leading Chinese auction house, and briefly controlled 80 percent of the Chinese e-commerce market.

Then it was completely outmaneuvered. EBay charged for listings, while a local upstart, Alibaba’s consumer-oriented auction site Taobao.com, did not. EBay also did not offer ways for buyers and sellers to chat online, fearing they would close their transactions off the site to avoid paying fees. Taobao executives understood that live conversations were necessary for Chinese consumers to cultivate trust, and offered an instant-message service to allow them to haggle over deals.

EBay also put its Chinese auctions on Web servers outside the country, resulting in a sluggish service that was difficult for some Chinese citizens to access.

EBay surrendered and left China in 2006, leaving the market to Taobao, which also now dwarfs Amazon’s Chinese e-commerce site.

The most recent underachiever in China was MySpace, owned by the News Corporation, which set up a locally owned Chinese business in mid-2007. But millions of people already use the social services of local Internet companies, like Tencent, which operates an online entertainment bazaar and has a stock market value of $37 billion, bigger than eBay’s. Tencent’s QQ instant messaging software is a huge cultural phenomenon in China, used by hundreds of millions of people.

Tencent has also led the way on social games and virtual currency, a field in which American social networks are only now beginning to catch up. MySpace shook up its Chinese subsidiary in 2008, and its chief executive departed.

American high-tech companies declined to comment this week on their China misadventures. But many high-tech executives and American experts on China complain that it is not an even playing field. American companies must operate in China through locally owned firms, creating a cumbersome ownership structure that limits their flexibility. They are also handicapped by one factor completely out of their control: government censorship and favoritism of local firms.

Google executives have said they are frustrated by censors who constantly scrutinize Google’s local search engine and try to control or erase its contents. Access to Twitter and Facebook is routinely blocked by the Chinese government. Local companies, on the other hand, often maintain close ties with regulators, which helps them anticipate new policies as the government increasingly worries that the Web might become a forum for antigovernment dissent.

Some in China say the American companies could work harder at thinking locally. Tu Jianlu, who used to work at Yahoo China, says Yahoo struggled here because its executives did not understand the Chinese market, did not trust local executives and often brought in outsiders to run things.

“When Yahoo China came up with new ideas and strategies, we had to report to the headquarters and wait for their feedback,” he said. “It usually took a long time to get their agreement. And when we got it, it was too late, too late for us to compete with local competitors.”

Ultimately though, Chinese Web entrepreneurs have done a good job of building Web sites that are tailored to the Chinese market.

Despite government restrictions, the Chinese Web over all is both vibrant and chaotic. There are thriving local blogs, entertainment and online gaming sites, a booming trade in virtual currency and even pornography (nude video chat rooms come and go).

Meanwhile, Chinese Internet tycoons like Jack Ma of Alibaba, Robin Li of Baidu and Pony Ma of Tencent are national figures, celebrated for their instincts and intelligence, much as Jeffrey P. Bezos, Sergey Brin and Larry Page are in the United States.

“The problem here is when you get down in the weeds and talk about flexibility and tactics, Chinese entrepreneurs are hard to beat,” says Mr. Rieschel at Qiming Ventures.

Offline chin

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Re: Google Quiting Mainland Market
« Reply #3 on: 21 March 2010, 05:32:57 »
Found this Google related news on Google News. :)

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中國拒絕「政治的谷歌」與「谷歌的政治」
http://news.wenweipo.com   [2010-03-20]     我要評論(2)

【文匯網訊】先是毫無證據地控訴遭到中國政府支持的黑客攻擊,後來又以「最後通牒」的蠻橫姿態威脅要求中國取消依法管理否則退出網絡搜索市場,繼而又是美國政客們和一些政府機構紛紛跳上檯面,為其「撐腰打氣」,共同演出了一場鬧劇。

 一個以擁有雄厚高科技和創新精神而著稱的全球最大搜索引擎公司——谷歌,終於不再「遵守」在商言商的普世之道,露出一張「政治臉孔」。這不能不讓人們質疑谷歌作為一個「商業公司」的獨立性,及其背後支持者的真正目的。

 按道理,已經在中國經營了4年並為自己起了一個好聽的中國名字的「谷歌」,不應該不知道,無論在哪個國家經商都應該尊重遵守所在國法律、制度的國際商業通則,只有這樣,才能真正地「入鄉隨俗」,贏得豐厚的客戶市場與商業利益。

 網絡空間也存在著主權和邊疆,必須受到各國法律法規的管制。任何一個國家都不會允許互聯網傳播色情、暴力、賭博和封建迷信,發表有關顛覆政權、民族分裂、宗教極端、種族主義、恐怖主義、仇恨排外情緒的信息,甚至煽動「顏色革命」。

 令人遺憾的是,從「谷歌事件」可以看出,谷歌來華的真正目的似乎並非「拓展商務」,而是充當了借助互聯網輸出思想,進行文化滲透、價值觀滲透的工具。據美國《華爾街日報》披露,谷歌創始人之一布林,因曾「在原蘇聯度過童年」,所以對於與政府內容審查合作的道德困境更顯突出,他多次向同事和朋友吐露其在華經營的矛盾心理。

 既然互聯網是自由的,那麼谷歌又憑什麼打著「信息自由」的旗號處心積慮地將美國的價值觀和評判標準強加於中國,並通過改變中國的社會制度建立美國的「思想霸權」「文化霸權」?!

 谷歌高層與美國官方的關係可謂千絲萬縷。據美國《環球政客》網站報道,谷歌是奧巴馬競選陣營的第四大贊助者,目前已有四名谷歌高管服務於美國政府,其中包括將任美國國防部副助理的前谷歌無線產品管理主管阿加瓦爾,而五角大樓還有一些安全專家來自谷歌也早已是公開的秘密。

 谷歌正在成為一個被政治化的品牌,這或許是政客們樂於見到的,但無疑也是這個已經憑借互聯網技術創新贏得競爭優勢的知名跨國公司的悲劇。當一個商業公司缺乏應有的獨立性和商業道德準則,人們又憑什麼相信其提供的搜索內容不帶任何偏見?正如那家披露谷歌與美國政府關係的美國網站所評論的:「當想到谷歌的管理層不斷跑往白宮的路上,人們有理由擔心谷歌送來的東西,加上了多少美國政治的私貨。」

 瞭解谷歌歷史的人知道,谷歌創始人相信谷歌有能力「通過信息自由傳播民主」,並奉行一個信條「不作惡」—— DON’T BE EVIL。但善惡的標準又是什麼呢?它不是由谷歌公司來單方界定的,更不是由美國一個國家說了算,否則對美國有利的就是所謂「善」,對美國不利的就一概冠以「惡」名。而且,也不是看它說了什麼,而應該看它做了什麼。

 更不用說,谷歌地圖上清晰地展示著各國軍事及其他敏感設施,惟獨將美國同類設施打上馬賽克進行掩護。一些喜歡使用谷歌的中國網民也許還不知道,鑒於谷歌與美國情報部門的密切聯繫,谷歌用戶的搜索記錄都將被永久保留,以供美國情報部門掌控。據《華盛頓郵報》報道,谷歌尋求美國國家安全局支持,幫助其分析據稱來源於中國的網絡攻擊,並已與美國國家安全局達成合作協議。

 中國這些年向世界開放的心態和成果是有目共睹的,中國也會按照自己的步驟和意願逐步完善互聯網的管理,這是中國的內政。更何況,作為現實世界的延伸,互聯網是不可能做到毫無障礙的絕對自由,即使在美國也是如此,也未允許互聯網信息傳播的放任自流。「9·11」事件後,美國為了反恐需要,規定警方有權搜索公民的電子郵件通訊,甚至可在不經允許的情況下監視公民通訊,加拿大、澳大利亞、新西蘭、英國、德國、瑞典等西方國家也有同樣的法案和規定。

 無論是去是留,谷歌和美國政客合演的鬧劇終究隨著斗轉星移而被人淡忘,已擁有近4億網民的中國互聯網市場也只會日益勃興。但隨著時間推移更加清晰並發人深省的是,谷歌事件的背後,美國正在強力推行的「網絡戰」。作為世界上第一個引入網絡戰概念的國家,美國正在把網絡戰作為下一個4年必須應對的現實威脅,美國國防部秘密研發的「網絡武器」正企圖將觸角伸向網絡世界的每一個角落。

 有報道說,美國國務卿希拉裡·克林頓今年1月7日邀請包括谷歌CEO在內的信息與網絡經營者參加的小型晚宴,討論如何利用高科技推動美國在世界各地的干預行動,鼓勵民間運動等,稱21世紀的工具諸如微博網站TWITTER、谷歌以及視頻網站YOUTUBE將是關鍵。還有報道說,在阿富汗和伊拉克,「網絡戰士」也已得到廣泛運用。據悉,一貫以網絡攻擊受害者示人的美國,目前擁有「網軍」近9萬人,專業黑客達 5000多名。

 或許谷歌正在做最後撤出的準備,或許谷歌仍在猶豫。但有一點是明確的:中國不會因為一家商業公司提出要挾,而允許它破壞市場的規則和法治準則。一家美國的互聯網公司企圖改變中國社會和法律制度的行徑是狂妄和可笑的。中國不歡迎「政治的谷歌」和「谷歌的政治」。

Offline chanchiwai

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Re: Google Quiting Mainland Market
« Reply #4 on: 23 March 2010, 07:52:59 »
somehow i take the China side opinion....particular toward US marketing strategy...they are so disguising... >:( >:( >:(

Offline chin

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Re: Google Quiting Mainland Market
« Reply #5 on: 24 March 2010, 12:20:17 »
Apparently it was a big news yesterday that Google is moving their simplified Chinese search engine to Hong Kong. Today, SCMP gives two spreads reporting on this. It's very rare that the newspaper gave two spreads on one item. I imagine only few times a year. So this show how important this is to SCMP's editors.

In a marco picture, historically there are some "one company against one country" type of contests. And seems in all these historic examples, the "one company" were almost always a proxy of the homeland government. Maybe this is the reason why some people think Google may preveal?

No matter how large a company is, there is no way you can fight the resources of a large country. In my mind it's almost certain that it was more than a business decision on Google side.

Offline kido

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Re: Google Quiting Mainland Market
« Reply #6 on: 29 March 2010, 01:12:39 »
Apparently it was a big news yesterday that Google is moving their simplified Chinese search engine to Hong Kong. Today, SCMP gives two spreads reporting on this. It's very rare that the newspaper gave two spreads on one item. I imagine only few times a year. So this show how important this is to SCMP's editors.

In a marco picture, historically there are some "one company against one country" type of contests. And seems in all these historic examples, the "one company" were almost always a proxy of the homeland government. Maybe this is the reason why some people think Google may preveal?

No matter how large a company is, there is no way you can fight the resources of a large country. In my mind it's almost certain that it was more than a business decision on Google side.

I do appreciate the bravenesses of the Big G, and well it does things that normal companies won't do.  And yes, it's almost certain that this act will fail sooner or later, and yet it continues to do it.  And there must be a big reason for that, people sitting on the Board are not dumb.  Maybe for a political reason, maybe some other reasons that could be translated to a business reason.

I hope the "don't be evil" still is the company motto of Google.  Or already a big Devil is already sitting deep inside it?

Hey, diddle, diddle ! The cat and the fiddle.

Offline chin

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Re: Google Quiting Mainland Market
« Reply #7 on: 29 March 2010, 07:18:03 »
I hope the "don't be evil" still is the company motto of Google.  Or already a big Devil is already sitting deep inside it?

I have not doubt their intention is Dont Be Evil.

But what's evil? Who's to judge?

Google by now has the largest privacy database ever collected in the history, any slightest misuse could be evil to many, but "research interest" to others. Yet anyone object to it cannot do/change anything. The company has absolute power in deciding what to do with your personal data.

Since when absolute power does not lead to something bad (even not outright evil)!?

Offline kai

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Re: Google Quiting Mainland Market
« Reply #8 on: 30 March 2010, 20:42:45 »
I feel that mainland Chinese people is more and more ignorant in future.  They (including me)  could not visit most of the international websites like facebook, twitter, youtube, etc.  Now, no more google.  In mainland, when you talk with some people age below 40 about June 4th event, they consider you as a idiot or want to harm the reputation of the country in some ways.   Poor Chinese people, all the medias are controlled so tightly by the government, know nothing about outsides and even their own country!  Now, some body stand up and say no to Chinese government, I appreciate. 
The only limit is your creativity.

Offline chin

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Re: Google Quiting Mainland Market
« Reply #9 on: 05 June 2010, 04:30:03 »
I must be sounding like a Google hater now...  :o

And on this particular issue of Google "accidental collection of private communication data", I would like to say "I told you so!" because if I am in Google's shoes, I would have done the same. Why not, if I have the money and technologies.

Lawyers Claim Google Wi-Fi Sniffing ‘Is Not an Accident’